The site plan for the redevelopment of the Oak Ridge Mall shows a multi-use, town center development with retail, office, hotel, and residential properties. (Submitted image)
The project could include retail, hotel, office, and residential properties, and generate more than $2 million per year in new city and county sales tax revenues, consultant says
Note: This story was last updated at 2 p.m.
The North Carolina company that wants to redevelop the Oak Ridge Mall has unveiled its site plan for the 60-acre property.
The $80 million redevelopment could include new retail, hotel, office, and residential properties. It would create almost 1,000 new jobs and increase annual city and county sales tax revenues by more than $2 million, according to an estimate by a city consultant.
The two remaining anchor stores at the 500,000-square-foot mall, JCPenney and Belk, would stay. So would Walmart and the Cinemark Tinseltown theater.
Meanwhile, the existing interior space between the anchor stores would be demolished. Previous mall redevelopment plans had also called for demolishing that interior retail space.
Tim Sittema
The private investment in the project would be about $80 million.
“Our vision for this redevelopment effort is to construct a ‘new downtown’ for Oak Ridge that will restore a sense of community and has the potential to make a positive impact on the region as a whole,†said Tim Sittema, partner at Crosland Southeast, the North Carolina company that has had the property under contract since early this year. The company signed a contract in late January to buy the mostly empty mall from Oak Ridge City Center LLC, although the deal hasn’t closed yet.
A press release said Crosland Southeast representatives will meet in the next several days with the Oak Ridge Industrial Development Board to consider a tax increment financing, or TIF, plan to help develop the site. A TIF plan uses new property tax revenues generated at a site to help pay for its development.
A meeting to consider the the TIF had been scheduled for Thursday, but it has been postponed to allow the IDB to update its policy to reflect current state law.
Richmond Centre, a Crosland Southeast development in Richmond, Ky., is pictured above. (Submitted photo)
The mall TIF would follow the model used for the recent development of Woodland Town Center on South Illinois Avenue, where Panera Bread and Aubrey’s restaurant are located, but on a much larger scale. City officials have said the mall TIF could be worth up to $10 million, and the money could be used to help pay for infrastructure improvements ranging from rerouted roadways and new traffic lights to building upgrades and property demolition.
“With the success of the South Illinois Avenue project, we are very positive about this financing approach that puts no taxpayer money at risk and requires the developer to assume all the financial risk,†said Oak Ridge economic development consultant Ray Evans.
Mall redevelopment plans have languished since 2002, when Oak Ridge voters rejected a controversial $23.2 million bond resolution that would have supported a plan to convert the mall into a town square that would have included new school administration headquarters and a senior citizens center.
The press release said Crosland Southeast is known for turning around difficult real estate projects.
“An experienced developer like Crosland has demonstrated an ability to take on challenging sites and turn them into long-term assets,†Oak Ridge Mayor Tom Beehan said. “We’ve worked hard to expand retail opportunities in our community and we are seeing very positive results from these efforts. Crosland brings credibility and experience to the table, and we look forward to working with them to create a more vibrant ‘center city’ for Oak Ridge.â€
Sittema said the introduction of new retailers and restaurants, offices, residences, and public spaces would differentiate the mall project from all others in the area, thus “catering to a broader constituency.
“Every community needs public places to gather and we are working hard to make this vision a reality for Oak Ridge,†Sittema said. “We are privileged to have the opportunity to work with this community on such a transformative project. We pledge to do our part in creating an attractive, economically viable project that retailers and other businesses will want to be a part of. With the support of the IDB, the city, the county and our other partners and stakeholders, we will work very hard to make this happen.â€
Crosland Southeast has headquarters in Charlotte, N.C., and an office in Raleigh, N.C. The company has developed retail and mixed-use properties in Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, and Virginia. Some of its other projects include Biltmore Park Town Square in Asheville, N.C., and Providence Marketplace in Mt. Juliet, Tenn.
For more information, visit www.CroslandSoutheast.com.
See the mall master plan as a larger PDF file that can be downloaded:Â Oak Ridge Mall Master Plan.
More information will be added as it becomes available.
TJ Garland says
The mall TIF would be follow the model used for the recent development of Woodland Town Center on South Illinois Avenue, where Panera Bread and Aubrey’s restaurant are located, but on a much larger scale. City officials have said the mall TIF could be worth up to $10 million.
“With the success of the South Illinois Ave project, we are very positive about this financing approach that puts no taxpayer money at risk and requires the developer to assume all the financial risk,†said Oak Ridge economic development consultant Ray Evans.
Should be–cost up to $10,000,000 not worth up to-
It will be years before we know Woodland is a success and the money is paid back. Meantime current property taxpayers shoulder the burden of the expensive sewer project.
How many small businesse will this large corporate welfare check put out of business?
Charlie Jernigan says
Do you prefer the alternative of the City borrowing up to $10M and let the taxpayers add that to their debt? Or the alternative of putting the Mall back into the marketplace for a few more years and hope we find someone as competent as Crosland SE in the small town development business?
As an additional alternative view, I believe that small business can uniquely compete with large business, except perhaps on price alone.
Dave Smith says
“Meantime current property taxpayers shoulder the burden of the expensive sewer project.” -TJG
My monthly water usage is about 4000 gallons. Even with the recent increases in water and sewer rates my bill is less than my Comcast CATV bill, which has increased 100% in the past 10 years. And when I think about it, there is some comparison to be made between my sewer connection and my cable connection, the difference being that my sewer connection carries the *%#! away from the house.
Mike Mahathy says
So you are against everything, right?
You would prefer to look at an empty eye soar maybe?
Emily Jernigan says
Exciting.
These guys seem to be on the right track. Let’s go!
Peter Scheffler says
It does seem to be an exciting project, and I look forward to learning more. One of the encouraging trends in successful cities is concentrated mixed use with walkability, instead of everyone having to drive from the suburbs. (As a counterexample, think about Turkey Creek. Not only does everyone drive to it, they even have to drive within it!)
If I understand TIF correctly, the developer would issue bonds and use the increase in property taxes to pay them off. Is that what happened for the Woodland Town Center? Or is TJ Garland right, and the city paid for the sewer improvements at Woodland with the increased property taxes paying that cost back. If the former situation is correct, city tax money isn’t at risk, but we still have a very high property tax rate on everyone because those property taxes don’t go to city coffers and allow us to reduce the tax rate. Also, will the existing property taxes on the mall property be adequate to pay for the increased services, such as police patrols?
Presumably the big economic benefit of the new development, even after the bonds are paid off, is expected to be increased economic activity–more jobs for Oak Ridgers, people spending more money in Oak Ridge for equipment, construction materials, and retail; the sales taxes; and even more people moving to Oak Ridge as the community becomes more vibrant. Has anyone determined whether Woodland Town Center is actually improving the local economy? Were the construction jobs and sales local? Are people simply shifting spending from existing restaurants, perhaps even causing job losses at existing restaurants? (Many of which are locally-owned rather than chains, however pleasant.) If there really is no city contribution to either Woodland or Crosland, then any economic and job shifts are just the inevitable workings of our market economic system, but it would be good to know if Woodland is helping to improve the Oak Ridge economy and lower our tax rates and Crosland likely to, or if we need different strategies.
Also, it would be unfortunate if the Crosland development were to pull investment away from Jackson Square just as we have gotten the grant to improve it as a place for business and the community to gather.
Angi Agle says
The biggest immediate benefit is an increase in sales taxes collected; that outweighs property taxes on an order of magnitude (and sales taxes aren’t abated). Just looking at the parking lots of the open businesses in Woodland Town Center, I have to think that it’s already paying off.
Sam Hopwood says
Gee, this sounds even better than the $67M high school that was supposed to be paid for painlessly with a 1/4% increase in the local sales tax. Now that the school board has blown that out of the water, a property tax increase is awaiting in 2014 to pay for that little jewel and we still owe $67M. Hello Crosland … Oak Ridger’s are so easy…… 🙂
Mike Mahathy says
But Angi, some people think we should not educate our children or if we do it should be the one-roomer like Little House on the Prairie. I mean who needs sales tax revenue. Heck, eliminate all taxes.
Jason Allison says
Pay no attention to TJG. She/he would complain about a gold bar.
Philip W Nipper says
Or, he would complain, as the saying goes, if you hung him with a new rope……….I do believe it is a hobby of his to stir the pot just for the fun of it.
Jason Allison says
I for one would like to hear what they would do. It would be interesting to see how they would do it withoutany breaks, where they’d get the funding.
Sam Hopwood says
Well Jason, Crosland could be a good corporate citizen like Kroger and develope their project with their own money. How about that! It’s called capitalism
And Mike, I voted for the new high school, I just don’t like to be conned. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
Jason Allison says
All in your own head Sam. You’re pretty good at shooting ideas down. Do you ever see a sunny day? I cannot remember you ever having anything positive to say. Must be a lonely life.
Sam Hopwood says
You didn’t respond to facts Jason. Try doing that rather than rambling nonsense.
Jason Allison says
I assure you, there is a sun. Most of us see it and don’t constantly complain. Maybe its just unfortunate that I’m the only one who has the cojones to call you out on it.
TJ Garland says
Well said Peter.
Paul says
Peter, you raise some excellent points, thanks, on at least two scores:
1. How can we get community input on what constitutes a desirable “community gathering place” for this proposed downtown development? Oak Ridge actually has a fair number of stores and restaurants. More shops alone won’t even assure more tax revenue if their quality AND configuration doesn’t make Oak Ridge an appealing destination and home.
Crossland is saying promising things but sadly the downtown site has been a monument to unfulfilled expectations and empty promises. If this is a live option then let’s form a citizen group to visit some sites (Crossland and other) and make some suggestions for Oak Ridge. Does such a group exist?
2. Regardless, we need to keep supporting, Jackson Square, the original town center and still home to some of the most committed and creative shop-owners. Not to mention the Playhouse and the high school sports venue. (Aside: I have no commercial interest or personal relationship with those shop owners). Thanks.
Jason Allison says
I knew we could count on some people who cry for change to cry about this proposed change. Do you want an ice cream cone and a stick of gum? I’m for this as is the vast majority of Oak Ridge residents.
VanMan says
I hope they consider moving the Post Office somewhere else. Sorry Post Office, but you would be kind of an eye sore on the edge of a development like this. Just my .02 worth. 🙂
Carol Donath says
Or maybe we could have another PO in the center of town with more clerks available, but I’m sure not going to happen with their losing so much money every year.
Harold says
The mall property does not include the Post Office. “They” have no control over it.
Dave Smith says
That Richmond Centre pictured with this article certainly looks nice. Dare I get my hopes up? I think so.
erin earley says
I am excited to get rid of an eye sore and create jobs..hopefully they use unions to do the work..there are way to many of them out of work right now we need an improvement to our city I hope this does it.I lam a ifetime resident
Trina Baughn says
I’ve visited two of Crosland’s developments (Richmond & Asheville) and have been very impressed. I do worry, though, about the impact of bringing in another hotel when our existing hotels are suffering. In a free market, that would be none of my concern. But when government subsidies are involved, we tip the scales against established businesses who earned their place here fairly…assuming that they all did. I am unaware of any abatements or subsidies given to our other hotels.
Jason Allison says
Thank you Trina. I was thinking the same thing about more hotels, we don’t need them. Give that space to things we don’t have an over abundance of.
Mike Mahathy says
Trina makes a very valid point regarding the hotel.
Harold Clark says
Except she doesn’t know what she’s talking about. In the first place, the city won’t be giving the developer any money to build anything. That’s not how a TIF works. Secondly, we have a developer who willing to sink $80 million into this project and who has far more expertise about it than either she does or anyone else in town as to what might be successful. And along that same line, OR has far too many “experts” who are more than willing to offer their opinion about things that they know nothing about. That sort thing has caused any number of missed opportunities in the past.
TJ Garland says
Then tell us how you think a TIF works, Harold Clark.
If the City paves the driveway of your new house, is it not a gift to you?
Harold Clark says
No, not if I have to pay back the cost. But then the fact remains that the city didn’t give Aubrey’s (or Panera or now Aldi’s or whoever might occupy the Stallings property) to locate on the property. As to how a TIF works, Ray Evans has already given an explanation, but then you could also get your wife, as a member of the city council, to explain it to you.
Charlie Jernigan says
These TIFs do not cover private driveways from a public road to a private house. They cover public infrastructure needed for a given project.
Paying for public infrastructure with property taxes is not unreasonable.
Ray Evans says
The Staybridge has a PILOT. One other hotel, the Holiday Inn Express I believe, applied for and had a PILOT approved but ultimately chose not to execute it.
Mike Mahathy says
Ray, How many rooms are planned for hotel? All I have seen is the drawing above. By proportion the hotel looks really small.
Ray Evans says
Mike
Regarding the number of rooms, the project is not at that level of detail yet. That will ultimately be determined by the hotel developer, the brand and the specific product that the brand proposes for the Oak Ridge market.
Regarding the size, remember that this is a concept plan, however, if you compare the footprint of the hotel shown to that of the Comfort Inn they appear to be about the same size.
Charlie Jernigan says
My understanding is that we often do not have enough beds during major events like during rowing season. And it is not clear to me that the market is saturated as we slowly come out of the recent recession.
But since we have offered assistance to other competitors, by being careful with proposed projects, we should know when a new project is just designed to eat our current competitors rather than capture additional opportunities and continue to offer incentives for worthy projects.
TJ Garland says
See http://www.dailyjobcuts.com
We are just going into a depression.
The rate of year-round hotel useage is around 60%, according to a local owner.
Charlie Jernigan says
We have just reached the normal steady state of new out-of-work applicants for assistance. We are now typically creating more jobs than population growth requires. And that is the recipe for moving toward full employment.
And 60% is about the nationwide occupancy rate for years 2000 through 2007. As the economy improves, there will be more demand here. Check out: http://www.calculatedriskblog.com/2013/06/hotels-occupancy-rate-tracking-pre.html
TJ Garland says
This is just the beginning of the passage of the most destructive law ever signed by a President since FDR.
employer-mandate-a-list-of-cuts-to-work-hours-jobs.htm?fromcampaign=1
TJ Garland says
Oops!
Good link–http://news.investors.com/politics-obamacare/092513-669013-obamacare-employer-mandate-a-list-of-cuts-to-work-hours-jobs.htm?fromcampaign=1
Charlie Jernigan says
If employers choose to not honor our history of employer provided health care, that is their choice, not the government’s. Besides if they do and enough workers cannot move to employers who do value their employees, then Obamacare can be a valuable source of healthcare insurance for these people.
If that becomes the trend, then it will be the employer’s choices that are moving this country toward the socialized medicine that would replace Obamacare. If this is what you fear would happen, it would be a result of a failure of the free marketplace to meet society’s healthcare needs.
I personally think that competition among companies for good workers will maintain our tradition of employer provided health care and Obamacare will drive down costs by creating the competitive marketplaces for insurance policies.
TJ Garland says
Have you really read the Obamacare health care law?– or just read the daily Kos explanation?
It is up to 10,000 pages now.
FYI, there are hugh deductibles for all the policies sold at the exchanges. Wait till Rufus/Billy Bob discovers there is no free lunch at the hospital.
Health insurance paid by employers is only 75 years old, and began when companies used it to steal employees from the gov. and competition during the wage price controls of FDR.
johnhuotari says
TJ,
Our commenting guidelines ask those who comment here to stick to the issues (see No. 3 in the Comment Policy). This story is about the redevelopment of the Oak Ridge Mall, so I would ask you to stay on that topic or maybe other issues directly related to it, such as TIFs. I don’t think the Affordable Care Act, or “Obamacare,” is directly relevant.
Thank you for your understanding.
John
Susan Gawarecki says
I’m not holding my breath. Realistically, Oak Ridge doesn’t have the population base to sustain a major retail development, and it doesn’t attract the type of demographic from the surrounding area that would be able to support high-end retail. Only if DOE spending increases and the sub/contractor companies are getting lots of contracts, then this development might succeed. That was the case in the early/mid-1990s, when Federal money was pouring into town and many of the DOE functions were located in downtown Oak Ridge. When cash cows such as HAZWRAP were cut back, that’s when the original Oak Ridge Mall started its steep decline. Crosland Southeast is a professional development firm, and you can bet it will do a detailed analysis for retail potential before putting any significant amount of money into this project.
Sam Hopwood says
A lot of good common sense there. Unfortunately, that is not always in abundance in Oak Ridge.Thanks for sharing that. The drawing suggests considerable less retail space than the old mall contained and quite a bit of “residential” areas coupled with lots of open areas and a hotel. Yes, Crosland had better do their homework.
Ray Evans says
The consensus from knowledgeable folks I’ve spoken to is that the mall is that was overbuilt from the very beginning. The mall was approximately constructed with approximately 700,000 SF. The market could have handled at most 500,000SF. The mall was never more than 70% or so occupied.
The physical layout of the mall was terrible. If the mall had been built on a “greenfield site” it would never have been built in that configuration that was essentially dictated by the Downtown Shopping Center layout.
The mall was constructed at a time when mall construction was already beginning to decline in favor of open air, life style centers.
Regarding Crosland…they have been doing their considerable homework for the last seven months. I am very impressed by their level of due diligence.
Sam Hopwood says
Thanks for your comments, Ray. I hope it all works out for Crosland but I have to say that I am disappointed that Penny’s and Belk will still “anchor” the project. I am amazed that they are still open, considering what appears to be their level of business. But regardless of what I or anyone else thinks, the TIF is a slam dunk with city council. No question about that.
Dave Smith says
Susan, is that Eeyore by your side in the photograph? Did he whisper in your ear those gloomy comments about the future of retail in our town? The way many Oak Ridgers complain about every promise of development you’d think Eeyore was our town mascot.
I have heard and read many explanations for the protracted death of the OR Mall, but to my knowledge this is the first time the blame has been placed on the demise of HAZWRAP. Is that your own theory or did you come across it elsewhere?
johnhuotari says
Over the years, I also have heard several explanations for the demise of the mall, including those mentioned by Ray Evans above.
I haven’t heard the particular explanation given by Susan Gawarecki, but I have heard a related one from a former senior city official who thought the mall’s fortunes were affected by DOE layoffs in the mid-’90s. I wasn’t here then and am not familiar with the magnitude of the layoffs or the particular areas that were affected.
Jason Allison says
And again, the amount of negativity will weigh greatly on any business that might want to locate here. Look at it like this, why subject yourself to the negativity when you have the choice to proudly raise your middle finger and say have a ball in your sour soup. What exactly do you guys want?
johnhuotari says
Jason,
I think the combined feedback I’ve heard so far both here and in the community has been more positive than negative. I think it’s fair to say that some people would like more details about the specifics of the proposal, though, and given the history of the mall, others will remain skeptical until the development happens. Still, I get the sense that residents and businesses are generally interested in hearing more.
TJ Garland says
Jason, i am very pro business, and have been a small business owner for 40 years with several business. I embrace free market capitalism. I abhor governments giving some businesses money to compete with already established ones. This is a t least crony capitalism and likely defined as a public/private partnership, aka Fascism by classical definition. It is a slippery slope to total government control.
I had lunch at Ruby Tuesdays today. I was there from 11:45 to 1:00pm. I counted the other customers. There were 14. Do you think Aubreys stole some of their diners?
Do you think it is afree market that allows the city to give Aubreys free money, so they will build next to Rubys?
I can possibly see the TIF working if we had no restaurant, or a movie theatre, or atire store here.
I like a total free market, little zoning, low tax city. Research Hong Kong. Unbelievable what the free market(invisible hand) will accomplish. Look at America from 1870 to 1913.
Jason Allison says
And you say you’re pro small business and we need to eat at out local small restaurants but yet you go to Ruby’s. I cannot remember anyone crying so much when Outback was built. Are we supposedbto not eat at Aubreys? Contradictions abound here in OR.
TJ Garland says
Grasping at straws, Jason.
When you want a nice salad out, where do you go?
Was Outback partially financed by taxpayers?
I would enjoy meeting and debating free market capitalism vs. socialism with you. You know where to reach me.
Jason Allison says
No thanks. I’d rather eat rotten apple and have conversation with someone that isnt on a soapbox snitching about every breath of life the city is trying to bring in. Sorry, no straws here and I won’t let your negativity bring me down. Man you guys must be lonely. I’m off to enjoy life I suggest you find a hobby.
TJ Garland says
The last resort of a liberal in a discussion of economics is usually name calling.
I certainly don’t call anyone negative for not agreeing with me. Unfortunately many CC members call citizens negative for not agreeing with their views.
How does more freedom less government sound to you?
I asked two other questions–
And if you won’t personally discuss your politics, then you are only a strawman.
Jason Allison says
I view this redevelopment as a 100% positive thing for Oak Ridge. I say let the city do what they need to to breath life into the hole Oak Ridge has become. The breaks given to pine ridge and Woodland Terrace are structured completely differently. I’m not going to try to whizz all over this project, we need it, like it or not. As you have pointed out yourself, YOU cannot stand the fact people don’t agree with your views. If evidence is what you want, read all of your posts. The only time you have had a positive insight on anything is when someone agrees with you or vise versa. So, if your done on your soapbox, step down and give it a rest. luckily there are more positive people on here and I can have sensible conversations with them.
mary connolly says
Mr. Garland,
You state that you don’t say anything negative about anyone. But in this statement you vilified “liberals” and called Mr. Allison a “strawman.”
TJ Garland says
I am glad you and I agree that liberal is deemed bad by the “progressives” today.
mary connolly says
Please reread my comment. I don’t believe that you and I agree on anything. Just answer the question that I have put to you. ” What are your practical suggestions for the new mall?”
TJ Garland says
Well, Mary, they will buy it at a fire sale price- 10 % of its appraised value 10 years ago.
I say they city needs to sit back and see what the Kroger center will be like. The mall is well maintained and not an eyesore.
Contrary to what liars on TV say, the US economy is very shakey. Crosland will not risk losing money unless all their ducks are in a row.
They want OR to share in the risk.
TIFs began in California in the 50s. They discontinued them by vote 2 years ago for many reasons, including getting stuck with paying off these 100% safe bonds from TIFs.
Go to Wikipedia and read.
There will be no “New Mall”, Mary. It will be a row of speciality stores like Turkey Creek.
Harold Clark says
The mall is not an eyesore? What universe are you living in TJ? And what difference does it make what the new owners pay for it? The important point is that they will buy it and redevelop it. You’d rather pass up this opportunity and let it decay for a few more years. And as to the “shakiness” of the US economy, it’s people like you who are to blame.
Robert Bonamarte says
The tax breaks are intended to help a developer overcome the difficulties in reworking a dead-end retail area such is the status of our current “mall”. Your logic would have us to believe that retailers are out there chomping at the bit to come steal revenue from established local businesses, when it reality this Oak Ridge property is currently just an eyesore and most would welcome the modernization and beautification. If we had all that we needed to keep shopping dollars local, there wouldn’t be a mass exodus to Turkey Creek every time we need something. That’s the current reality, it’s not more competition for retail spending that already takes place here, but a step towards keeping more shoppers local to begin with, which would help all local business owners. We have to generate the feeling that we can stay local and find a good selection of the items we need.
TJ garland says
You don’t think Aubreys wants to steal diners from Ruby’s? They have to to make a profit.
Harold says
Except, as usual, TJ is wrong. The city did not give Aubrey’s a dime. The city moved a road, the cost of which will be paid back from increased property taxes paid by, wait for it., Aubrey’s!
TJ Garland says
Harold who?
Come on John.
Harold says
Instead of being a “netcop”,why don’t you prove me wrong? Or perhaps you could just quit lying about things and being negative about every attempt to improve things in OR.
TJ Garland says
Lying, Harold somebody? My info is not gleaned from the papers. Isee the proposals, the financial reports.
Your source?
Actually the city is in good financial shape compared to most cities in the country.
But as Trina might say, “A penny saved is a penny earned”
In a true capitalist economy, government is to be held responsible for maintaining a level playing field for businesses.
Read “The Law” by Bastiat , French economist, politician.
johnhuotari says
Harold,
I think you are new in the comment section here, so I wanted to let you know that we do ask those who comment here to also include their last name. It appears as though you have started signing your posts with your last name as well (as Harold Clark). Is that correct?
Thank you for understanding and for reading Oak Ridge Today and participating in the discussion.
John
johnhuotari says
Sorry, I’ve been out of town the past few days and wasn’t able to moderate comments. I have asked Harold to include his last name, which I think he’s already started doing.
TJ Garland says
Actually the TIF was for Aubreys andPanera.
Aldi, and several pieces of property around it are included in the TIF region of anticipated development.
The IDB borrowed money from a large bank to reimburse the city for the $900,000 infrastructure work. Yes the city work was paid for.–now all the new property taxes go to pay off the bank loan. The gains nothing for ten years. These businesses effectively add nothing to the city coffers for this time. In the meantime current property taxpayers must shoulder the debt of the city- without these increased taxes. old businesses therefore subsidize the construction of their new competition.
Ask Gatti’s Pizza.
I know it’s hard for many taxpayers in OR to understand the danger of deals like this. They have been conditioned since the forties to trust and depend on government. Most have never filled out a Schedule C on their 1040, and have had minimal education in economics.
Charlie Jernigan says
You are ignoring sales taxes which cannot be diverted by state law. The only hope of reducing residential property taxes is to increase sales taxes which both of these TIFs are designed to do.
TJ Garland says
The city gets around one percent of the 9.75 tax.
So the city gets about $20,000 yr. from Aubreys and Panera. How much of this amount is from new out of town diners?
I would guess that the restaurant pie was simply divided into smaller pieces.
Ray Evans says
The state collects 9.75% and keeps 7%, Anderson County receives the remaining 2.75% . Of the Anderson County portion, 0.6875% is distributed to the City of Oak Ridge and 0.4764% is distributed to the Oak Ridge Schools for a total City portion of 1.1639%.
The state does not share data on sales taxes collected from individual business.
Harold Clark says
Forty or so years ago there were fewer than a dozen places to eat out in OR (and two of them were Dairy Queens). Now there are over 50. Can anyone see what’s wrong with TJ’s reasoning? The world has changed.
Ray Evans says
The IDB borrowed, as I recall, $625,000 from the First Century Bank in Maynardville. The Economic Impact Area in the Woodland TIF included the land on which Aubrey and Panera were constructed as will as the land between Panera and the cemetery. The Dean Stallings property was also included in the impact area.
The funds were used to construct a public new roadway, a traffic signal, electric lines relocation and storm drainage.
The payoff based only on the incremental property tax revenues fro Aubrey and Panera was 8-10 years. (I don’t recall the exact duration). The construction of Aldi will shorten that playoff duration. Additional development within the economic impact area will further shorten the duration.
Harold Clark says
The fact remains that Aubrey’s did not receive any money from the city to locate in OR. Without the new construction, the city wouldn’t get the increased property taxes, so wht is the difference? It’s the fact that now we know that in a few years the city will get an increased amount. It’slong past time for people like TJ to lead, follow, or get out of the way
TJ Garland says
Thanks, Ray.
Glad to know that now you know the facts, Harold.
I have led the way. Created dozens of jobs, built warehouses, and brought millions of out of town money directly into the Oak Ridge economy.
I have never been a follower. The view is not that good.
mary connolly says
Wow, You should run for public office. Show us “followers” how it’s done and so humble,also.
Harold Clark says
Really, TJ? Noble Metals employed “dozens” of people? Where did they live? How does buying scrap metal bring “out of town” money into OR? As usual you are quite full of yourself.
Peter Scheffler says
I’ve also wondered how much of the Aubrey’s business is just shifted versus new. Another local restaurant I like that seems to have been hurt is Homeland Cafe. On the other hand, Applebee’s seems to stay just as busy.
Harold says
Ruby Tuesday’s problems run much deeper than being located in OR. All one has to do is go read some of the reviews on urbanspoon or yelp. Aubrey’s has better food and service. It’s not the least bit surprising if RT is losing business to them. As to the Homeland Cafe, I would guess that a fair number of Oak Ridgers would be hard pressed to even tell you where it is located.
mary connolly says
Mr. Garland,
Ah yes, America from 1870-1913. The age of the Robber Barons, children working 12 hour days, no minimum wage, no unions, undocumented immigrants working as slave labor for a few white men who became wealhty beyond belief on the backs of the poor. Boy, those were the days and don’t they sound familiar?
Now besides lowering everyones taxes in an endless harangue what rational suggestions do YOU have for the new mall?
TJ Garland says
You forgot to mention(as all unionists do), that families were literally starving on the farms and in the suburbs then. They lined up to apply for those factory jobs. No gun was held to their heads.
Unions had a roll then in improving working conditions. Probably the largest reason they improved was the invention of labor saving machinery and tools. However, this meant that fewer employees were needed. Unions went on strike then.
mary connolly says
Mr. Garland,
I repeat my question to you.
David A. Vudragovich says
Ray, I know you personally from some panels/committees and appreciate your insights.
I have been asking for over a year now is where will the employees come from? I always hear about Oak Ridge having an aging retired population and how the younger citizens leave (I see many of them just going over to UT Knoxville) and then hear about how they come back when they are in their 30-40’s.
Does Oak Ridge have enough workforce population to staff these new businesses or do “whoever” expect to pull potential employees from surrounding communities?
I suspect if they come here to work, they will probably shop before heading home (aka keeping the money here instead of running down Solway and taking the money out of town).
Thanks for your thoughts
Ray Evans says
The redeveloped mall property will likely be an employment center for residents of Morgan, Campbell, Knox Counties as well as Oak Ridge and the rest of Anderson and Roane Counties.
David A. Vudragovich says
Thank you.
Jason Allison says
I have to say thank you both Mr. Vudragovich and Mr, Evans. Hearing sensable comments and reasonable debates are what is going to get things changed the way they need be. Constant negativity and no reasonable alternative are just going to drive prospective business away.
Jason Allison says
I vote we picket any future development and let them know just how much we are against change. We should let them know we are happy with what we don’t have and we love driving to other cities to give them our business. It’s no surprise to me that people outside of Oak Ridge say we’re nothing but sticks in the mud.
Robert Bonamarte says
This is an opportunity to gain more retail establishments here in Oak Ridge, possibly retaining local sales tax within our city and county rather than in Knox County via Turkey Creek, Cedar Bluff, etc. Each time I pass that empty mall building to go shop in West Knoxville, I think of how nice it would be to keep the sales locally if the stores were here. A decent shoe store to start, that would be nice.
Jason Allison says
I agree. I don’t like having to drive so far to get a good pair of New Balance. We also need a good sporting goods store, maybe Ducks or another smaller chain. Now I would say Gander Mountain or Academy but I’m unsure we’d be able to support that.
Robert Bonamarte says
I don’t think we’ll ever get a Gander Mtn or Academy or Dicks. But we need a Rack Room or Shoe Carnival or something simliar to provide family footwear. What we are also unable to attract are the Kohl’s, Target, or even Sears to come back. We’ve been down this road before with redeveloping the mall area, and it fell through, and even this time the developers seem to be teasing everyone by not announcing any store names. I’m not optimist at this point that the retail commitments are in place.
Sam Hopwood says
Why do you suppose that OR is unable to attract the stores that you mentioned? My view is that it is simply demographics as Susan stated. The large senior population here simply doesn’t need to buy much except the basics. BTW, I purchased a nice pair of New Balance shoes a few weeks ago at Penny’s here for around $50. Jason should try shopping in OR first before driving all the way Turkey Creek.
Jason Allison says
Oh, and BTW, any given weekend there are a large group of either off road clubs, rowing venues or shooters. Oak Ridge happens to be the last place people shop before they embark on their activities. Such a generalized statement as we can’t support the businesses that were brought up is plain closed minded.
TJ Garland says
We can’t support the 8 new restaurants.
You will have no waiting time at the half deserted ones now.
Harold Clark says
So you’re for the government somehow preventing new restaurants from opening in OR? How very un-libertarian of you.
johnhuotari says
Sam,
Although there might be a higher-than-average percentage of seniors here, I think one of the goals for those interested in economic development is to attract more young families here.
Sam Hopwood says
You bet John, attracting young families has been the goal for some time and we are still failing . Why? David V. gave the answer when he chose to buy outside of OR, citing more bang for your buck in housing there. And guess what, Powell,Clinton, Lenoir City, and others have school systems that graduate future doctors, lawyers and injun chiefs just as we do. Our school system continues to drop in enrollment while increasing in students elgible for subsidized lunches, now at about 50%. That should open peoples minds. More retail will be nice for the current residents of OR but it won’t solve the basic problem. Industry that pays a living wage, not minimum wage as retail does and decent, affordable housing would be of great benefit. Just my view.
TJ Garland says
I think the buyers only have an option until financing, city obligations on TIF, and renters are signed up.
Lots of obstacles yet.
What say Ray?
johnhuotari says
That is one of the most consistent desires I’ve heard in the past decade or so: People want more shoe store options.
TJ Garland says
Ever do the math on opening a shoe store here? Try it.
By the time you add up all your monthly expenses, you will find you have to sell a lot more shoes than you think.
If you have to borrow money from a stingy banker, then your house and car is in danger.
Our local and national economy is very shaky.
Jump in.
Peter Scheffler says
A good local shoe store for my taste is Edwards in the lower level of Jackson Square across from Market Square restaurant. Good Merrill shoes and boots for walkers.
TJ Garland says
Edwards has been in business for decades. He is a shoe expert. He carries high quality shoes.
Thank God there is no hip hop music blaring from a speaker.
William Cramer says
Perhaps I’m badly under thinking the entire issue (or perhaps some are over thinking), but here is my view on this particular issue of mall redevelopment:
If it’s so obvious, as some here say, that the town can’t or won’t be able to support a new mall, a Kroger Marketplace, new restaurants, etc., wouldn’t it also be obvious to Crosland Southeast, Kroger, Aubrey’s, etc.? These companies haven’t become successful by being sloppy or not doing their homework. Seems to me that they would have done their research before embarking on such a large project and I would assume that they concluded that, tax breaks or not, they would make money off developing this site in Oak Ridge. I don’t care what kind of tax breaks or money they would get, if they didn’t think they would make money then they wouldn’t build here. Like I said those business are successful for a reason. Again, maybe I’m under thinking the entire issue.
Some point to the shutdown and the uncertainty surrounding Y-12 as a cause for concern right now, which is legit. Those things won’t last forever though. It may not be soon and it may be a long painful road, but the government will solve their issues, Y-12 will get a new contractor and the work will return. And perhaps things like this modular nuclear reactor manufacturing facility will come to fruition which will be a huge boon for the economy here.