Tom Byrge, director of missions for Clinton Baptist Association, explains a proposal to put the national motto “In God We Trust” on the Anderson County Courthouse in Clinton.
Note: This story was last updated at 9:26 a.m. Feb. 20.
CLINTON—Despite some unanswered questions about design and legal liability, the Anderson County Commission voted 12-4 on Tuesday to put the national motto “In God We Trust” on the Anderson County Courthouse in Clinton.
The vote came after more than an hour of discussion during a sometimes-raucous, standing-room-only meeting that, at times, resembled a church service.
Supporters of the proposal outnumbered opponents.
“We don’t want to impose our religion on anybody,” said Kelly Bates, an Anderson County resident and mother of Commissioner Zach Bates. “However, we think it’s unfair and unjust for our children to be robbed of our Christian heritage.”
Supporters cited the use of the phrase on U.S. money, on federal buildings in the nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., and the frequent use of other phrases that reference God, including in the Pledge of Allegiance. They said the proposal was constitutional, and the motto was recently inscribed on the Putnam County Courthouse in Cookeville.
“I really don’t see why it should be that controversial,” said Mike Thompson, pastor of Second Baptist Church in Clinton. “To me, it’s not a matter of coercing anyone into believing in God. We do believe this is a part of our nation’s history and heritage.”
“It’s time to put God back into as many things as we possibly can,” said Gil Bates, Kelly Bates’ husband and Zach Bates’ father.
Anderson County resident Kelly Bates said it’s unjust and unfair for children to have their Christian heritage taken away.
The proposal, which had been supported by 46 pastors at 46 churches and would not be supported by county funds, still needs further review by the county law director and the Anderson County Operations Committee on liability and legal issues and the specifics of design and placement. As proposed, it would be funded by donations from churches, businesses, and people, and it is expected to be considered again by County Commission in March.
“This is just a vote of confidence tonight that we’re going to do it,” said Anderson County Commissioner Robert McKamey, who made the motion to approve the proposal. It required a two-thirds vote since it hadn’t been considered by the Anderson County Operations Committee.
The four commissioners who voted against the proposal had concerns about legal liability, the lack of design specifics, and what they characterized as the last-minute submission of the proposal, which first gained widespread public attention last week. Commissioner Myron Iwanski said it should have gone to the Operations Committee first.
“I think we’re getting the cart before the horse,” Iwanski said. “We need to have a full discussion. I don’t think this is the time to do it.”
Iwanski voted against the proposal as presented to commission Tuesday. So did three other county commissioners from Oak Ridge districts: Whitey Hitchcock, Robin Biloski, and Jerry Creasey.
The other 12 commissioners voted in favor of it. They were McKamey, Bates, Tracy Wandell, John Shuey, Dusty Irwin, Tim Isbel, Chuck Fritts, Steve Mead, Mark Alderson, Steve Emert, Jerry White, and Rick Meredith.
Two Oak Ridge residents also opposed the proposal.
“I see it as an intrusion into government, and I think that should not be done,” Oak Ridge resident Ruth Young said.
“Government needs to be apart from any particular mention of God,” said Anne Garcia Garland, an Oak Ridge City Council member and leader at her church.
One opponent, who identified himself as Steve Chandler, said government and religion were unduly entwined for centuries in the Old Country.
“There was so much persecution and killing of people who did not believe the way the government wanted them to believe,” he said. The phrase “In God We Trust” is not inclusive, so it is discriminatory, he said.
In a 7-9 vote, Commission rejected a motion to first send the proposal to the Operations Committee.
The proposal was introduced with help from Anderson County Mayor Terry Frank, local businessman Lynn Byrge, and Tom Byrge, director of missions for Clinton Baptist Association.
Aaron Wells says
Who were the four that voted against it?
John Huotari says
I updated the story with voting information.
Wm.Russ Martin says
Thanks, those four are the only sane people there. We need more people who understand basics of US government. Can we elect those four multiple times to fill out the commission and remove the ignorant ones next time?
First question, though: Which god?
Cue the ACLU filing suit and then the county paying TAXPAYER MONEY! (sorry, went into wingnut mode there) and then paying someone TAXPAYER MONEY! (oops, sorry) to remove the reference to a unicorn – was it a leprechaun or a unicorn? – from the TAXPAYER PAID-FOR BUILDING! (sorry, wingnut again).
The entire set of quotations from the In Unicorn We Trust approval meeting are complete nonsense and people speaking from privilege:
“We don’t want to impose our religion on anybody,†said
Kelly Bates
– But you are going to start now and make it official and sanctioned by the government by putting it on the ultimate symbol of government in the county.
“I really don’t see why it should be that controversial,†said Mike Thompson, pastor of Second Baptist Church
– In that case you won’t mind if the printer puts “In Allah (praise be upon Him) We Trust” on the courthouse then would you?
“Supporters cited the use of the phrase on U.S. money, on
federal buildings in the nation’s capital in Washington, D.C., and the frequent use of other phrases that reference God, including in the Pledge of Allegiance. They said the proposal was constitutional, and the motto was recently inscribed on the Putnam County Courthouse in Cookeville.”
– So many things wrong with this…
The phrase began with McCarthy during the Fraidy-Cat Years! Added to money, added to the Pledge of Allegiance by fear and ignorance.
And, “The frequent use of other phrases that reference god”? [Relevance?] [Citation needed]
Translation: “It’s what I want and I am the majority so, MOB RULES! DEMOCRACY!”
“They said” it was constitutional? I call it! Tap-Tap no erase-ies!
Wedge Strategy, anyone?
Didn’t know that Cookeville was the standard bearer for the
state!
“It’s time to put God back into as many things as we possibly
can,†said Gil Bates, Kelly Bates’ husband and Zach Bates’
father.
-One day, we pray, there will be a church here in this desolate, god-free land for us to worship at and then we will truly be free. And one day, we hope and pray, there will be a church on every street corner and if a blind man threw a rock he would hit two churches. For this to be true one day, we pray and hope, in Allah’s name, peace be done and pasta for everyone, come all, amen, and play ball.
Was this entire affair sponsored by the Bates family? Did they bring enough Kool-aid?
Thankfully, the proposal hasn’t passed anything real and still needs to be looked at by the county lawyers. With any luck the accountants will be included. If they have a million dollars or so to spare then they should definitely go for it. The ACLU loves free money! Ask nice and they might provide some handy Constitutional hand-outs the commission can take home and have a fourth grader explain it to them. In Thor’s name, this I pray.
Denny Phillips says
Despite your lovely snarky language, alas this issue has been ruled on by the Federal Court of Appeals and the national motto was ruled to be in compliance with Constitutional Law. It is a straw man argument and a stretch of the imagination to believe that Anderson County will be the focal point of an ACLU landmark case when bigger targets such as the Washington Monument, The. Lincoln Memorial, et al are much more fertile ground.
Denny Phillips says
It should be additionally noted that fine organizations like the ADF offer free representation to communities like Anderson County on such cases. Whats more, Tennessee has now become a “loser-pays” state to discourage such frivous lawsuits. Indeed, were such a lawsuit filed, given the aforementioned precedent on this issue, the County might actually stand to profit from these signs, which suits me just fine 🙂
Mark Caldwell says
“Snarky” language? Why Mr. Phillips, would your language be deemed as offensive by some?
Denny Phillips says
Snarky: critical, cutting, testy.
I suppose people could find my words offensive, after all I have used the word “God” numerous times!
p.s. This post is an example of sarcasm, not snarkiness or offensive language.
Mark Caldwell says
World English Dictionary
sarcasm (ˈsÉ‘ËkæzÉ™m) — noun
1.mocking, contemptuous, or ironic language intended to convey scorn or insult
2.the use or tone of such language
[from Latin sarcasmus, from Greek sarkasmos, from sarkazein: to rend the flesh, from sarx flesh]
Synonyms – bitterness, ridicule.
Denny Phillips says
Lol. Touché. Though I prefer the definition if sarcasm as “satirical wit”.
Ck Kelsey says
The founder of the ACLU stated that the “Property class” should be abolished. Do you drink “Kool-Aid ” from their fountain Wm?
Myra Mansfield says
I’m so thankful to see that the power of a unified faith community has impacted American heritage!
David Allred says
Next step is to get our unified faith community to impact that ‘other’ kingdom… the one that had nothing to do with human law and went so far as to write Divine law onto the hearts of men, rather than tablets of stone.
Denny Phillips says
Mr. Allred your statement is insulting. These congregations have performed countless hours of service to the community.
David Allred says
No doubt about that. But nothing draws a standing room only crowd more than a golden calf. I’ve always said if you want to find a sacred cow, start tipping a few over.
andrew howe says
Yeah, this is what I’m talking about.
These three comments point out precisely why it’s best to keep god away from courthouses. You see courthouses *should* be for logic, and clear thinking, and clear communications.
Bringing up Divine law, ‘other’ kingdoms, and golden calves just doesn’t make sense in this context. It’s like you just wanted to spout out some christian buzz words to show how ‘holy’ you are.
Basically, until you ‘God’ people can start making more actual SENSE, please stay far away from our legal system. It’s having enough troubles of it’s own.
From the article: “Kelly Bates said it’s unjust and unfair for children to have their Christian heritage taken away.”
I have a hard time thinking any child in TN, or the rest of the bible belt for that matter, feels like the ‘christian heritage’ is being taken away. From my perspective, it’s being shoved down our throats daily, whether we want it or not.
You can’t go two blocks in this state without passing a church. So let’s just speak bluntly, shall we. God folk are greedy. They have HUGE sway in this area, but because the courthouse lacks a reference to God, they want one there. Basically, they’re like boy dogs – they just won’t be satisfied until you’ve marked EVERYthing.
Courthouses are for legal matters. Churches are for spiritual matters. Let’s not get the two confused.
Sheesh… I don’t even understand why this is a debate. Govt is for pragmatic purposes. It’s has NOTHING to do with God. And not all of us even believe in God. Therefore ‘He’ does NOT AT ALL belong anywhere near our government.
David Allred says
“Courthouses are for legal matters. Churches are for spiritual matters.” ~ As near as I can tell Andrew, this was exactly Jesus’ position — to let the courts do the work of the courts & faithful do the spiritual work (Luke 12:13-14). As a pastor, I didn’t support this resolution for some of the reasons you outlined. Nevertheless, I disagree with you in that I do think this should be debated and discussed — if for no other reason, than because of the objections you mention. I am personally not keen with enscribing God’s name onto stone without a biblical mandate to do so.
Wm.Russ Martin says
It should be debated? It HAS been debated, since before the USA. Result: Church != State.
Ck Kelsey says
If you discount God in our country’s history ,you are not using “logic” or “clear thinking” .Our laws were built on the same basis as the 10 Commandments BTW.
Denny Phillips says
Yes, thank you guest. I believe that was Mr. Allred’s original comment which basically implied that these good citizens of Anderson County were in essence engaging in idolatry.
David Allred says
It was and removed it in the spirit of good will because it was a blanket statement and unkind of my part. However, I think it is worth debating since the Scriptures in fact point us away from engravings and the temporal world. The dangers of the temporal world are just this — that we choose the things which decay and make our stands on the wrong things. The calf was constructed out of the people’s anxiety – they needed something tangible because they found the incorporeal nature of God to demand more faith than they could muster. I find it fascinating that the one thing absent in all this debating is the Scripture and its messages.
David Allred says
I also think it’s facinating reading this morning’s paper which contained more direct quotes from the vote that it was the dissenters who seemed to be quoting the gospels while the supporters relied on personal narratives and story. Does that not strike anyone as a bit odd or suspect? What does the Bible really say about this?
Denny Phillips says
Mr. Allred what bearing does scripture have on placing the national motto on the courthouse?
David Allred says
My question exactly. If Scripture does not have any bearing, then why garner clergy and church support?
ETA – there is one great place to turn for scriptural support, but after a week of talk, no one has mentioned it, which leads me to believe that to use your own phrase, this act is “mutually exclusive” of the biblical mandates.
David Allred says
I’m going to delete my original response in an attempt to “preserve the unity of the Spirit.” Certainly churches do good work, quietly and behind the scenes. There is sacrifice & cost involved in those activities. Yet as a pastor in this community for over 20+ years, I am increasingly disheartened that the poor, the hungry, the naked, the imprisoned and every category of persons that Jesus Himself asks to advocate for, receive no standing-room only crowds from the faithful. No one circulates county-wide church petitions for them; they rarely get front page newspaper press when discussed in county commission meetings – and when they are discussed in county commission meetings there is no unified church response; no celebration.
This was exactly the sort of initiative that does pull out the faithful though… defending ‘our rights’ or our ‘national identity.’ We live in a highly anxious age in which the church is feeling a loss of relevance and prominence. We prop up agendas, politicians, and causes as a response believing that Hollywood, government, educated liberals are the problem. We argue about public prayer, denying Jesus’ own instruction to avoid making a show of prayer. We advocate for God in the courtroom, despite the fact that Jesus says in Luke 12 that He’s not got much to do with the legal kingdom. Secular culture is unfortunate – and it’s a real problem. But the deeper problem is that Church collective in America clings to a form of godliness but denies it’s power.
That’s my take. I searched the Scriptures for a good reason to join the party this week & ultimately, I came up empty. I am still hopeful that some good will come from this, but I doubt it will do much more than push the lost further away from the cross. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
Denny Phillips says
Mr. Allred, you act as if the two issues are mutually exclusive, that one can’t be concerned about the needs of the homeless AND support placing the national motto on the courthouse. Surely when your congregation shows up in mass for a concert, a Christmas pageant, etc. you don’t stand at the pulpit and chastise them for showing up for an event but not for feeding the hungry. Surely you didn’t declare your congregation idolators (I believe you referenced sacred cow-tipping) when they chose to secure a large, ornate venue for worship instead of using those resources for feeding the hungry.
But more importantly, I realize your dissent likely comes from a desire of church and state separation. But consider this, the government IS it’s people. There is no separation of government and people, as much as some would like to pretend there is. The government is not some nebulous, amorphous cloud floating always just out of reach but rather the arm attached to the body that is your community. The fact that the people that comprise this community and it’s government want to give praise to God and show patriotism to country should be a comfort to you, not a source of consternation.
Your assessment that government and people (and de facto the people’s moral underpinnings) should be separated is debatable. I would like to think that if Christians had stood up in Nazi Germany and upheld the Bible that millions may have been saved. I like to think that if moral men had brought their case to the Kremlin, Stalin may have not “purged” away the lives of millions. I’d like to think that if Christians in China had expressed their faith through governance that Mao would not have stacked the bodies of his citizenry.
i appreciate the many good works of you and your flock and hope, in time, you will lose your distaste for the other goodly congregations in this county.
David Allred says
Thank you for the response. I believe we should try to remain civil because this is a highly emotional issue and I offer that admonition to myself as much as any.
First, I certainly believe there are many good-natured people who do great work for the community who support the initiative. Those two desires are not mutually exclusive – one doesn’t come at the expense of the other. I also believe that God won’t ever be separated from government, motto or no motto. I know many of our judges and public servants and know they are people of faith. The placement of the motto will not change that fact. I also know that as long as people are afraid of going to jail, there will always be prayer in the courthouse too.
I tend to avoid debates about church vs. state things. Those don’t much interest me. I am interested in what Jesus did. Did Jesus go to ornate buildings to worship? Yes, he did from time to time. Did he support the poor? Sure, sometimes he did. Other times he sent them away hungry because they rejected the spiritual food he offered. Did Jesus attempt to preserve his national hertitage by inscribing God’s name on various buildings around Jerusalem? …. I just don’t see it.
As to Christians being active in politics, I’d say they are already and have been for most of our history. I do think that is waning now and I understand why Christians feel threatened. Still, political answers don’t carry much water for me no matter how they are construed.
For example, in Nazi Germany – the process was political AND carried the backing of the majority of the German church. Do I wish to heaven that a group of Christians had been around to sway the brutality of Mao or Stalin toward the Light? Of course!!! Nevertheless, the church isn’t a buffer for anything if she isn’t first planted firmly in the life of Jesus. Weren’t these the same courts that kept my grandfather’s generation from sharing a water fountain with blacks just fifty short years ago? And yet most of South, including its churches supported this political activity and the judges who ruled against civil rights.
Again, I’m not against putting these words on the walls of the courthouse. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg. I just find no Gospel evidence that this is anything Jesus would rush to support. And it saddens me deeply to know that this amount of energy and effort is nearly vacant in our county when it comes to the things he would.
Trina Baughn says
You find no evidence in the Gospel that Jesus would support a proclamation by His people that they trust in God?
David Allred says
I am certain He proclaimed it every day! It was called the Shema, or daily prayer. “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One. Trust in the Lord with all your heart, mind, soul and strength….” They proclaimed it together in worship.
The power of it was to be “written on the human heart” as the Apostle Paul reminds us, “not on tablets of stone.”
That’s my take. It doesn’t have to be anyone else’s. I repsect the difference of opinion, but would like Scriptural clarification as to the specificsof this activity – in the spirit of open debate. I am big enough to admit that I could be wrong… but I want to read it in Gospels first.
Denny Phillips says
Mr. Allred it’s interesting that you reference the civil rights movement in the course of discussion, as the interfacing of Reverand Martin Luther King, Jr. & government brought about many positive changes. Imagine if someone had told Dr. King that his moral beliefs and Baptist congregation had no place in the public court and that he should keep his faith separate from the laws of the land.
Ck Kelsey says
Bingo. If Dr. King was right to mention God,why can’t people adhere to that same belief now?
David Allred says
Hehe, yeah and it was mostly the Southern Baptist churches going after his American Baptist rights. Something that they didn’t offer an apology for until 1995.
Peter Scheffler says
As someone who has attended numerous concerts at High Places Church and knows some of the members,
I must respond to Mr. Phillips’s comment above:
â€Surely when your congregation shows up in mass for a concert, a Christmas pageant, etc. you don’t stand at the pulpit and chastise them for showing up for an event but not for feeding the hungry. Surely you didn’t declare your congregation idolators (I believe you referenced sacred cow-tipping) when they chose to secure a large, ornate venue for worship instead of using those resources for feeding the hungry.†While the concern for feeding the hungry is appropriate, I would remind him that few religions advocate more than tithing, and even among the most ardent believers, few take vows of poverty. Also many of the concerts have a strong spiritual message or are fundraisers for the poor and disadvantaged. Finally, the church is not ornate, and it is not even particularly large as churches go these days. Moveover, it is one of the original buildings
of the city and was renovated by the congregation in service to the community, regardless of religious beliefs.
Denny Phillips says
Mr. Scheffler you are indeed making my point. Acts of faith are not “one or the other” as has been alluded to. Christian fellowships can indeed BOTH lobby commission to place the national motto on the courthouse AND feed the needy and help the homeless. One does not preclude the other.
David Allred says
My only question was this Denny, and I would encourage you to answer it so we can have a productive discussion about faith in this county. I can agree that it doesn’t have to be one or the other, but which one draws the crowd? And I guess a second question is like it — Why?
Denny Phillips says
I do not know which “draws a crowd” more. You would be a better judge of which draws more people, as a minister. What events draw more people at your church? Feeding the homeless or Christmas pageants?As to my personal experience, I certainly know my church has more participation at community service events then were represented in the commission meeting. Of the 50 or so churches that joined the coalition there were only roughly 150 people in artendance at the commission meeting including dissenters abd citizens attending for various other items on the agenda including 6 in attendance from the health department, two representatives from school board, 5 people their to speak on the deer hunt in Anderson County Park, 3 members from the Rock Ministries to speak on an issue over the beer board, a various others for issues. In truth, if I had to estimate the number of citizens in attendance for the sole purpose of the National Motto discussion, I would place it at about 100, or roughly 2 citizens per congregation represented in the coalition. Based on that estimate, on this occassion I would imagine that more people attend functions to minister to the needy than are interested in government affairs.
As to their motivations, I can only speak as to what I heard at the meeting, as unlike some, I do not portend to know what lies in the heart of men and make presumptions based upon my arrogance. Numerous veterans addressed the commission to discuss the patriotic significance of placing this motto on the Courthouse and shared their stories of military service, gave honor to their children who were currently overseas engaging the combat in service to our nation. In addition 4 pastors and 2 other citizens spoke to the issue. As for myself, well, honestly I just came for the show, much like those that attend your concerts.
David Allred says
I think you make a good point by saying that 150 people don’t make a mass outing & that by and large the community is full of people – Christians and non-Christians alike – who are busy doing good things.
It could very well be that the idea sounded resonable, a signature goes down on paper and whatever happens will just happen for many in our community.
But coalition is your word and I think it’s a good one. A coalition is a pact to cooperate in unison toward a shared goal or a joint action. My question, before it was derailed with assurances that lots of good is going on, was why make a joint pact on this issue? Where is the joint pact to preserve the dignity of persons? Why is a coalition so easy to obtain for bricks and mortar, but so hard to enact for flesh and bone?
Those are simply questions. I have offered answers based on the bibilical narrative because that’s what I do as a pastor. It may very well be as you hint below, that the biblical narrative shouldn’t have to apply in this scenario — this is simply a civic action. I can accept that, really. But the way this unfolded indicates a spiritual component… that compotent merits clarification.
Trina Baughn says
I’ve enjoyed following this discussion. It is rare that you find passionate people with differing opinions on such a controversial subject engaged in civil, intelligent discussion. With that said, can you provide some concrete examples of the joint pact you reference and what the outcome of it would look like?
David Allred says
Trina, I have been thinking and praying and feel like I am probably doing more harm to unity by pressing what are for me personal issues related to Christ and His teachings. I think I am going to bow out, beg apologies for the places I have offended and keep my fellow pastors and their congregations in my prayers. An atheist once said that we often end up becoming the very things we fight against and that strikes me as potentially what I’m doing… rattling on when in fact it doesn’t bother me at all to have this phrase on the courthouse. I just wish we had gotten together beforehand to pray it through and hear one another out. I will post something seperate from all this later today, apologize for any ill-will I may have stirred up, and commit to prayer for this process.
Ck Kelsey says
Amen James II The Faith/Works deal . It’s is a dynamic combination.
Ray Kircher says
Should we have a National Language before posting signs on our buildings? A National Motto won’t matter, if people aren’t going to read it? Ironic, in my opinion.
Susan Gawarecki says
Too many of the “Christians” in Nazi Germany did not consider Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, those with birth defects, and other unpopular demographics to be the “neighbors” that they were supposed to love as themselves. We have the same problem in this county, state, and country.
Sam Hopwood says
The answer of course, is to vote those County Commissioners that supported this, out of office at the next election. That won’t happen though, because they were voting as the people they represent wanted them to. Democracy in action. That’s our system of government, like it or not.
Ck Kelsey says
I think we should vote the enemies of America out Sam. Starting with the “Biloxi” and Iwansski crowd. fake Republicans.Let them go get a real job where they came from Up NORTH ! j
Ck Kelsey says
When a lefty invokes the National Socialist card of Germany,you know they have a weak position on a subject. they would ban the use of the word”Nazi” if we showed the parallels of it’s party leader and Obama. Hmm ,wonder why they can’t see how tyranny is mostly a liberal trait.
Denny Phillips says
The dissenting commissioners may be pointing to legal liabilities, design flaws and improper process to justify their no votes, but those reasons simply aren’t valid. The motion, as passed, clearly stipulated (after being debated ad nauseam, I might add) that the the motion would be referred to the County Law Director for review of potential legal liability and sent to operations for sign design specifics.
Given the recent historical behavior of a couple of the dissenters, Commissioner Iwanski and Commissioner Biloski, the credibility of such statements seems difficult to swallow.
For instance, when then Temp-Mayor Iwanski was faced with impending legal action over the proposal to place the Glen Alpine Convenience Center in the David Jones Industrial Park, Iwanski had a little more cavalier attitude about potential lawsuits stating that sometimes you had to “take chances”. And now we are to accept that the commissioner has gotten sheepish?
When Commissioner Biloski, a paid employee of the Emory Valley Center, decided that the Emory Valley Center needed some improvements, she simply took it upon herself to circumvent the county’s purchasing directives and order the improvements without consent of the budget committee. Now we are to believe she is a stickler for process?
This citizen suspects something more might be at play in their motivations. Based on the eye-rolling and huffing I witnessed during the impassioned speeches of the Anderson County citizens who attended the meeting to make their voices heard by some of the commissioners, I strongly suspect that many of these commissioners simply do not want “In God We Trust” on the courthouse for various personal reasons.
Truthfully, if I could read minds, I believe the internal dialogue from the dissenting voters might read something like this:
“Damned hillbilly rednecks wanting to slap God all over everything. Why can’t they be more cultured and brilliant like me?”
But then again, that’s just one man’s guess…
Denny Phillips says
It should be noted that Ruth Young also stated that she opposes “In God We Trust” on currency and coinage.
Denny Phillips says
I believe the exact terminology she used was “I’m one of those people”.
Bird Loveall says
What a silly thing to do. I don’t care if it’s public money or not, it’s still a waste of time and space.
Ck Kelsey says
Wrong. Our national motto is significant !
Andrew Howe says
I’m an atheist so I think it’s DOWNRIGHT insulting to link “God” to anything to do with the government.
But I also don’t trust judges or lawyers to think clearly, or do the right thing, or stand up for justice. So maybe this fictional god is about the only thing trustworthy about the building…
Sam Hopwood says
Many years ago a co-worker who had survived the African campaign against Rommel’s finest in WWII and then hit the Normandy beaches on D-Day, collecting four purple hearts in the process, told me once that he never saw an atheist in a fox-hole. That comment has stuck with me all these years. Good luck.
Denny Phillips says
I’ve never seen such a litany of offensive comments and insults as those I read here from a group of people that are afraid the national motto will will offend and insult people.
Wm.Russ Martin says
Put the motto on YOUR church, YOUR house, YOUR lunchbox, not on OUR courthouse. Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Denny Phillips says
Why would we not put our great nation’s national motto on our courthouse? Shall we not fly the flag either?
Ck Kelsey says
Why is it your courthouse ?It’s the people’s ,is it not ?
Peter Scheffler says
Many, if not most, of the writers of the constitution were believers in god in some form. However, their beliefs were not all the same. Moreover, they were familiar with the deadly battles in Europe over religion and the divine right of kings. One of their brilliant achievements was to create a document that did not mention god, and that mentions religion only in
two places. Article Vi states that “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States. And of course the First Amendment of the Bill of Rights states, in part, that “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof”
The Constitution also was the product of much compromise. So in the
spirit of compromise, recognizing that “In God We Trust” is the current motto of the United States and thus eligible to be posted, I think that we also should post on the Courthouse some other important national sentiments. I suggest “E Pluribus Unum,” the former national motto still on The Great Seal of the United States (and the back of the one dollar bill, along with “In God We Trustâ€), and also “With Liberty and Justice for All,†which appears in both the original Pledge of Allegiance and the current version. Each of these phrases could be on one of the sides
of the roof. Whatever our beliefs about god, we all recognize that there is much to be done to help one another and our communities, and we can come together to do that. I think these additional words would help show that and encourage us.
I would be willing to contribute financially to place the letters on the building and to create an endowment fund for their maintenance.
Denny Phillips says
I have no quarrel with your proposal. I think you should take it before Commission.
Ray Kircher says
What happened with “E Pluribus Unum”?
Mark Caldwell says
Will Ms. Frank and the forty-six pastors at the forty-six churches be willing to pay for the impending lawsuit or do they prefer the citizens of Anderson County pay for it.
Ms. Frank is sure dedicated to bringing jobs to Anderson County. This action should employ a number of attorneys.
Kudos Ms. Frank!
Ck Kelsey says
Duplicate !
Mark Caldwell says
Will Ms. Frank and the forty-six pastors at the forty-six churches be willing to pay for the impending lawsuit or do they prefer the citizens of Anderson County pay for it?
Ms. Frank is sure dedicated to bringing jobs to Anderson County. This action should employ a number of attorneys.
Kudos Ms. Frank!
Denny Phillips says
Members of the coalition to install the signs have contacted the ADF in advance of the proposal to secure FREE legal representation for the county at zero cost to the taxpayer in the unlikely event of a lawsuit.
Mark Caldwell says
Have they “secured” FREE legal services? What are the stipulations? Could you provide more specifics?
Kudos!
Denny Phillips says
I am mistaken on this issue, apparently it has only been discussed. My apologies.
Mark Caldwell says
Thank you Denny.
David A. Vudragovich says
All this opinion and no one brings up that prayer and bibles are not allowed in school but are allowed in prison. When I was in my late teens, I knew that religion instilled values and morals and ethics while laws only taught people if you get caught you get punished (or do not get caught!). Ignoring the whole religious atheist debate, I think it would be good for society to bring back because in a generation or two we might have less crime and more responsible citizens…maybe even politicians!
Mark Caldwell says
David, I believe if you do just a little research, you’ll find that both prayers and bibles are allowed in public schools.
David A. Vudragovich says
I will rephrase. “Not in school” I know from 1983 to 1990 I said no prayers in school except “please God help me pass this test!” and the Pledge of Allegiance would come under fire every so often. And as much as I try to avoid the negative media, when I do hear about prayer and religious books (not just bibles) in school it is normally in a tone of intolerance. I am the type of person who does not really care if there is a manger or a Star of David out front of the court house. If people would be a little more loving and tolerant the world might just…maybe…be a nicer place.
(Mark thank you for pointing out my mistyping)
Mark Caldwell says
I’m assuming when you say you didn’t have prayers while attending public school you mean prayers lead by a school official/representative. I’m of an age that I remember the Lord’s Prayer read aloud over the intercom by the principal.
The world is certainly more tolerant and loving by not forcing kids to recite the prayers of others. We all live here; we might as well make it work as well as we can for everyone. I firmly believe our lives in this world will ultimately benefit when we are more tolerant and understanding of others.
Thank you David.
John Huotari says
I’d like to echo what Trina said. I know there are strong feelings on both sides of this issue, and I want to thank everyone for keeping the conversation civil.
David Allred says
Wow, 60 comments… unfortunately, I think maybe a bulk of them are mine. It’s time for me to bow out because I don’t believe I am helping the situation, but perhaps making it worse. I extend my apologies to any who’ve been offended. I hope it’s clear that my passions are at least centered around the question of how Jesus might handle things, to which I think it is ok to have differing opinions. The problem though is while I am pretty sure He wouldn’t engage in a political battle, I am 100% sure that Jesus wouldn’t get a caught in a debate that spread disharmony among good people — in that regard, I’ve not lived out what I believe. I remain somewhat saddened, but those are my issues to work out in prayer and it’s wrong to project them on my fellow pastors. Each of us will return to the works to which we’ve been called & none of us are required to be on the same page with the small things. I will commit to pray for our pastors, their congregations, and for the right thing to happen here. It is my hope that in the future, we have more open dialogue with each other as clergy about the where’s, the when’s, and how’s of stepping into the political sphere as collective body of believers — and that we at very least have been sure pray it through together as a faith family on the front end.
Until then, to those who’ve participated or just watched from a distance, my prayer is that “In God We Trust” is written first and foremost on our inner, spiritual being. I am going to practice what I preach by trusting this process over to Him. Be well and pray for me as I pray for you.
Denny Phillips says
Mr. Allred, I certainly took no affront from our conversation here. My only real issue was with your initial statement.
God bless you sir.
irishxs says
Why do people insist on forcing their own beliefs on everyone else?? Are they that insecure??
John Huotari says
Please remember to use your real name when posting here. Thank you.
John M Disque says
Unfortunately we live in a country were our politicians
represent the largest groups and those with the most money. Representing ALL of
the residents went out in the 1950s so – to hell with Buddhists, to hell with
Agnostics, to hell with Atheists and to hell with the other 600+ religions represented
in America as many stood and stated that “God†refers to their Christian God.
The most closed-minded and self-righteous get their way.
Does the word “we†refer to the Anderson County Government or the Anderson
County residents and why is that two separate things?
Ck Kelsey says
Wah ,that’s why the North is so great a place to live John,because you people are so much smarter than all of us down here. Thanks for coming to Anderson County you weasel. We need a commie lib to replace the ones that moved to Florida. 🙂 To quote another poster “Why do you people insist on forcing thier own beliefs on everyoneelse?Are they that insecure?”
John Huotari says
Please don’t make this personal or use insults. Thank you.
John M Disque says
>>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.<<<
Why do we allow the church to dictate government but we disallow government to dictate the church?
This country was founded on escaping religious suppression – mostly from English dictatorship.
If you're going to allow this – perhaps it's time to tax churches and end the national debt.
Ck Kelsey says
DUH ! You can’t even comprehend the 1st Amendment if you want to create laws (OR Taxes) against Churches .Any church that pays taxes does so voluntarily.That is what your Federal government says.Try not being part of the tax system ,it’s not possible.Every entity in this country pays taxes in one form or another. Now leave government out of the equation of Churches,and if Churches are wise they will stay right where they were before Liberal progressives took over the country in 1913. And sense the Trilliondollar spender in chief took over ,you can confiscate all of the churches and your spender in chief will still increase the national debt. It’s a SPENDING problem.tell us more of how you guys do things UP NORTH.
Ck Kelsey says
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=492568780779173&set=a.109238362445552.5453.103659536336768&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf
John M Disque says
>>>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion<<<
It's not hard to understand and no free for you to interpret it to suit your self-righteous agenda.
Ck Kelsey says
Too bad you had enough self righteousness for the whole county when you moved here. Still telling us Southerners how to do things I see.
Web definitions
holier-than-thou: excessively or hypocritically pious; “a sickening sanctimonious smile”.
Ck Kelsey says
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=433843106691295&set=a.175603185848623.44593.166618413413767&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf
John M Disque says
No one is forcing you to violate your faith. They’re FORCING you to stop shoving it down everyone’s throats and FORCING you to keep it out of our government.
If you’re going to violate the Constitution like some self-righteous dictator who thinks they’re above the law – you are in-fact breaking the law and losing your Constitutional protection… just like any criminal.
You don’t like the idea of your church being taxed? Keep it out of the state and off public property. That goes for Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, the endless amount of Christian religions and the 600+ other religions.
Ck Kelsey says
We will continue to do what we do ,and if you don’t care for it that will be your problem.if we read your own words and you will find that you always contradict yourself and you always believe you can FORCE people to do what you say. Not here though.In your alleged mind you are acting like the know it all while you advocate violating OUR Constitution.Not happening here though. That goes for you and any liberal that thinks they are so smart that the Constitution doesn’t matter to them,even when you misquote it. Or quote half of the 1st amendment. It’s not that we don’t think your’e smart,it’s that you know so many things that aren’t so.
Ck Kelsey says
When you advocate “Forcing” Churches to pay a TAX you want to levy, you are advocating the violation of the 1st amendment ,part of the Bill of Rights.Protection from scoundrels and government control. So tell us John Disque,how much would your unConstitutional tax be ?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=425140427570596&set=a.169816249769683.43740.169567139794594&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf
John Huotari says
Please do your best to try to keep the comments from becoming personal. Thank you for your participation and understanding.
Ck Kelsey says
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=434611633281109&set=a.175603185848623.44593.166618413413767&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf